Curse

Ollj · Sep 13, 2005, 12:51 PM // 12:51

con_ritmo tema deserved to lose this and waste time, the actual winners were the 3 foes that left early.

Kassad · Sep 13, 2005, 12:53 PM // 12:53

God i hate runners in LA arena, gives me the shits. Even with a snare they find a way around it. IMO id delete their accounts.

aron searle · Sep 13, 2005, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

My god! Take a snare. Its not that hard. Next you will be whining because they are using res sigs.

YES because there is no counter for snare

at all

really

i mean it

no counter

Sigil · Sep 13, 2005, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Someone should make a running team for tombs so that some of these -elite- 'it's not a problem' folks get to feel the love.

I sincerely hope you folks defending griefers/runners get to experience this first hand, repeatedly. Then come back here and post how you loved that soandso wasted your time on a build that could only win by making you quit.

Random arena is the sewers of pvp eh? Yeah, those fools should get griefed just for trying to have a good game there...

Many of the responses in this thread demonstrate extreme ignorance and little else. Add a point system that triggers after 2 minutes when no damage is done or something similar. Can you think of an honest situation in an arena combat where no damage would be done for 2 minutes? (1 minute honestly, but lets go way overboard).

unclepodger · Sep 13, 2005, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

No apparatly were all supposed to adjust our builds to counter griefers not for FIGHTING IN THE PVP ARENA.

GOD FORBID.

How is adjusting your build to counter runners and adjusting your build to counter other builds for "FIGHTING" different?

Guild Wars is all about strategy and their counters. This a strategy, why would you refuse to counter it? Admittedly, his strategy involves factors "outside" the game, i.e. boring you to death, time contraints etc, but too bad. He could take it but you couldn't. You lose. The object of the game is to win, by whatever means possible wihtout contravening the rules of the game. You might say you play for fun, not to win, but too bad, not everyone plays that way. He plays to win, you play for fun. Guess whether the desire for victory or the pursuit of fun is stronger.

Sigil · Sep 13, 2005, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by unclepodger

How is adjusting your build to counter runners and adjusting your build to counter other builds for "FIGHTING" different?

Guild Wars is all about strategy and their counters. This a strategy, why would you refuse to counter it? Admittedly, his strategy involves factors "outside" the game, i.e. boring you to death, time contraints etc, but too bad. He could take it but you couldn't. You lose. The object of the game is to win, by whatever means possible wihtout contravening the rules of the game. You might say you play for fun, not to win, but too bad, not everyone plays that way. He plays to win, you play for fun. Guess whether the desire for victory or the pursuit of fun is stronger.

If you look at the original post, the runner LOST. I would say anyone who wastes 50 minutes on an Arena match has LOST. Designing a build to waste time because you can't design a build to win makes you a LOSER.

Yes, it's a strategy with counters, but how does that mean he is playing to win? It appears to me he is playing to waste time, not to win. If the other team happens to give up, he wins, otherwise he eventually gives up and loses. If a pure running build had some affirmative capacity to goad the other team into making mistakes so it could kill them, then sure it might be playing to win, but it doesn't. It doesn't play to WIN, it plays to make people QUIT the game.

Once again, I hope you encounter someone who uses this 'strategy' against you. Enjoy it when it happens.

aron searle · Sep 13, 2005, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Quote:

How is adjusting your build to counter runners and adjusting your build to counter other builds for "FIGHTING" different?

Guild Wars is all about strategy and their counters. This a strategy, why would you refuse to counter it? Admittedly, his strategy involves factors "outside" the game, i.e. boring you to death, time contraints etc, but too bad. He could take it but you couldn't. You lose. The object of the game is to win, by whatever means possible wihtout contravening the rules of the game. You might say you play for fun, not to win, but too bad, not everyone plays that way. He plays to win, you play for fun. Guess whether the desire for victory or the pursuit of fun is stronger.

You know what your completly right

How about everyone just runs away, WOW what fun.

Of course what youve missed is that if it works, MORE people will do it.

OH WAIT THEY ALREADY ARE.

And people like me who want a FUN game (thats fighting each other not a game of who quits first) would simply not bother.

Let me ask you.

what would you do if you were put in this situation, quit?

unclepodger · Sep 13, 2005, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sigil

If you look at the original post, the runner LOST. I would say anyone who wastes 50 minutes on an Arena match has LOST. Designing a build to waste time because you can't design a build to win makes you a LOSER.

Yes, it's a strategy with counters, but how does that mean he is playing to win? It appears to me he is playing to waste time, not to win. If the other team happens to give up, he wins, otherwise he eventually gives up and loses. If a pure running build had some affirmative capacity to goad the other team into making mistakes so it could kill them, then sure it might be playing to win, but it doesn't. It doesn't play to WIN, it plays to make people QUIT the game.

Once again, I hope you encounter someone who uses this 'strategy' against you. Enjoy it when it happens.

The other team quitting garners a win for you. Therefore it is a play to win. It is only a waste of time from your point of view. From the runners view it each extra minute increases his chances of winning due to people dropping. The guy in the OP lost because he didn't have the patience necessary for this build.

Quote:

You know what your completly right

How about everyone just runs away, WOW what fun.

Of course what youve missed is that if it works, MORE people will do it.

OH WAIT THEY ALREADY ARE.

And people like me who want a FUN game (thats fighting each other not a game of who quits first) would simply not bother.

Let me ask you.

what would you do if you were put in this situation, quit?

I already mentioned that not every one is playing for "fun". They play to win. If you can't be bothered then why are you even posting here. Next time u meet a runner just quit since you can't be bothered. Now everyone's happy.

Sammiel · Sep 13, 2005, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sigil

Someone should make a running team for tombs so that some of these -elite- 'it's not a problem' folks get to feel the love.

I sincerely hope you folks defending griefers/runners get to experience this first hand, repeatedly. Then come back here and post how you loved that soandso wasted your time on a build that could only win by making you quit.

Random arena is the sewers of pvp eh? Yeah, those fools should get griefed just for trying to have a good game there...

Many of the responses in this thread demonstrate extreme ignorance and little else. Add a point system that triggers after 2 minutes when no damage is done or something similar. Can you think of an honest situation in an arena combat where no damage would be done for 2 minutes? (1 minute honestly, but lets go way overboard).

Those 'elites' would just quit, since it likely isn't worth the hassle of fighting it, and the team that is actually using that strategy would be idiots since each match would likely take an eternity, making their faction earnings craptastic. If you are that concerned about it take a W/Mo with hammer and a sprint skill or two and maybe mend ailments.

aron searle · Sep 13, 2005, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

I already mentioned that not every one is playing for "fun". They play to win. If you can't be bothered then why are you even posting here. Next time u meet a runner just quit since you can't be bothered. Now everyone's happy.

Your right i cant be bothered to chase someone i cant catch.

Neither can i be bothered to WASTE 1-2 skills slots just to catch runners, (1-2 skill slots is alot when you have only 8).

I really do see your point, but i think its just silly.

If 2 boxers where in a ring fighting (a BIG ring), and one just ran around untill the other quit.

would you say that was a good fight, and that he deserved to win.

Quit simply

no.

and you didnt answere my question??????????

what would you do.

unclepodger · Sep 13, 2005, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Well obviously in boxing the runner wouldn't win since if there is no KO the winner is decided by points awarded based on performance. So it would be stupid to do that in boxing. But in GW it is a smart strategy.
If I encountered a runner I would stick in there. Quitting is basically admitting that the strategy is too good for you to handle and that you simply do not deserve to win if you can't stick with it.
And Im curious as to why you keep on referring to taking a counter skill as a "waste". If it counters runner builds (which you ourself predicted as becoming more popular in your previous post), how is it a waste?

aron searle · Sep 13, 2005, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Well obviously in boxing the runner wouldn't win since if there is no KO the winner is decided by points awarded based on performance. So it would be stupid to do that in boxing. But in GW it is a smart strategy.
If I encountered a runner I would stick in there. Quitting is basically admitting that the strategy is too good for you to handle and that you simply do not deserve to win if you can't stick with it.

Ok agreed its a strategy to win, But i really dont see the point of sticking with it.

Its no fun.

Its no Challenge.

To me PVP is a competition, whats the point of it if you take the competitivness out of the fight.

It simply becomes a case of who has more spare time.

Sigil · Sep 13, 2005, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by unclepodger

The other team quitting garners a win for you. Therefore it is a play to win. It is only a waste of time from your point of view. From the runners view it each extra minute increases his chances of winning due to people dropping. The guy in the OP lost because he didn't have the patience necessary for this build.

I already mentioned that not every one is playing for "fun". They play to win. If you can't be bothered then why are you even posting here. Next time u meet a runner just quit since you can't be bothered. Now everyone's happy.

My point is that you don't control the win. You aren't playing to win, you are playing for the other team to quit. You don't lure them into a position then unleash a devestating attack. You don't have a crushing defense that will kill them if they attack you. You run around and hope they quit before you do, and you don't control when or if that happens.

Yes, if everyone else quits, the game gives you 25 faction points. I guess you consider this a 'win'. If 25 faction is a win, killing 1 other player is a win, and it doesn't take 50 minutes. 50 minutes for 25 faction is a LOSS

. By what standard does a running build win? How do they win?

I guess if making everyone else quit, rather than killing them, is your victory parameter, they have a chance at 'winning', but really, how else is it a win? Even by this standard, a running build which can't kill anyone also does not increase your chance of winning - ANY other player you encounter in the arena can beat you, just by using your stratagy against you. How is a running build designed to win?

It isn't. It's designed to waste time, not win.

By your logic, it is a valid strategy in checkers for someone to refuse to move until you quit. Then they win, right?

Edit for Sammiel - I am not concerned about it. I don't build against it because any runner is a non-factor in the match. If I take a snare it's to suit my build or my team build. I'd just as soon not see more of it however, because it makes for a $@^! boring match. For you holier-than-thous answer this question honestly, how does a running build ever 'win'?

unclepodger · Sep 13, 2005, 02:54 PM // 14:54

aron:yes i agree that its not fun and no challenge. and you're spot on about it being only a case of who has more time. But those are the lengths some people go to for a win, let them do it.

Sigil: All good checkers tourneys have a rule which disallows so called "Excessive Delay". Just like aron's boxing anology, yours is flawed as well. As for by what standard is running a build to win, i refer to Anets standards of course. The green word "Victory" pop out on the screen when the other team drops does it not? So what if you don't control the win. A win is a win by any measure. Not everybody plays for faction. Some play just to pit themselves against a fellow human being, in this case, pitting the runners patience against the other teams'. It is not designed to "waste" time. It is designed to consume time, which leads to dropping, which leads to a win. It is not a waste.

varyag · Sep 13, 2005, 03:35 PM // 15:35

All of you who think its impossible to make a build to run forever from most teams really don't know what you're talking about.

Me/N with fragility and illusion of haste is the best option. If they hex you, you have dehex or breaker, if they rush you, you use illusion of haste to flee, then plague touch... if they split from their healing/prot, you nuke them to shit with Frag/Vir.

I was once on a team with both hex and condition snare and faced such a build and ended up waiting 150 minutes (!!!) with my game minimized to the size of the life and skillbars, one eye on the game one browsing the forums, to defend from his occasional spike attempts. I just didn't want to give in to a griefer.

Games that last over 15 minutes deserve to be ended by most kills.

Sigil · Sep 13, 2005, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by unclepodger

Sigil: All good checkers tourneys have a rule which disallows so called "Excessive Delay". Just like aron's boxing anology, yours is flawed as well. As for by what standard is running a build to win, i refer to Anets standards of course. The green word "Victory" pop out on the screen when the other team drops does it not? So what if you don't control the win. A win is a win by any measure. Not everybody plays for faction. Some play just to pit themselves against a fellow human being, in this case, pitting the runners patience against the other teams'. It is not designed to "waste" time. It is designed to consume time, which leads to dropping, which leads to a win. It is not a waste.

You are making my point. 'All good checkers tourneys' - First, why do you think that rule was instituted? Second, an arena match is one non-unique match and the only reward is faction, what are the rewards in a tourney? What are you winning? A green 'VICTORY' on the screen? You can get a lot more of those over the same time period using a non running build. Who really wins, the guy who spends 50 minutes then gives up, the guy who spends 60 minutes before his opponent gives up? I guarantee I will have seen a lot more than one green 'VICTORY' over that 60 minutes.

The flaw is in your logic, last sentence rewritten - "It is designed to consume (waste) time, which (may) lead to dropping (if the other players don't choose to waste their time), which (may) lead to a win (compared to many potential wins with a decent build).

I'm not going to keep on this because like I said to Sammiel, I'm really not concerned with it. I'll happily give the runner the 'win'. That one arena match isn't worth more than a few minutes of my time and I 'win' by leaving. If the prize were a million dollars, I'd make him run til his eyes fell out

, but 25 faction and a green 'VICTORY' that I can get in the very next match aren't too special.

The only reason I try to discourage this is because the real losers are the people that get stuck on the runner's team - they play 3 on 4 and they didn't choose 'waste time' as a strategy.

MuKen · Sep 13, 2005, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by unclepodger

aron:yes i agree that its not fun and no challenge. and you're spot on about it being only a case of who has more time. But those are the lengths some people go to for a win, let them do it.

Plz read thread title and OP. The focus of this thread is on what A-net could do to improve the game and not on determining whether or not the runner is doing the smart thing from his perspective. If a new rule removes an aspect of the game which is "not fun and no challenge", then it is a good rule, and I don't see why you would argue against its supporters.

A-net's goal is to make the game fun. So no, they should not "let them do it" when doing it makes the game less fun for everyone else.

Bingley Joe · Sep 13, 2005, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

what would you do if you were put in this situation, quit?

Well.. yes. Pretty simple really. I think any sensible person would probably just quit and find a more suitable opponent.

The only reason I can think of for not doing so (assuming of course that facing the runner is NOT something you consider to be fun) would be because of factors involving either pride or ego; not wanting to "admit" defeat to someone who used a tactic like that.

Well sorry, but that's an illusion. NOTHING happens to you when you just quit a match and move on to find one that's more fun. It's NOT "admitting" that the runner beat you, it's merely determining for yourself that you are not having fun playing a video game under those circumstances, and realizing that YOU have the ability to change how you are having fun by simply leaving the match.

It doesn't MEAN anything about you if you do so, and if the level of competition was really so beneath you, then there should be no question in your mind that it is the right thing to do.

The guy doing the running is clearly having his own brand of fun. And frankly, he's doing so without using cheats or exploits, and there are numerous counters and strategies available within the game mechanics for dealing with such a creature. Definitely harder to coordinate those counters in a random PUG, but that gamble is part of the allure of the random arenas, isn't it? Keeps things unpredictable. Play on more organized teams if it's not acceptable.

The perceived problems this sort of activity is causing are just that. They come down to a difference of opinion over what constitutes "fun", and that's not something worth arguing over in the slightest. ANet has FAR better things to worry about than whether or not players can agree over what's "fun" in a competitive atmosphere such as that when no part of the game is actually being broken by either side.

Again, it's very simple: He's not cheating. Let the man have his fun. Either beat him with the skills you brought and some strategy and teamwork if that seems like fun, or move on and find a more suitable opponent.

It only takes 2 seconds.
Your ego will forgive you IF YOU LET IT.
Nobody else really cares what you do.

crimsonfilms · Sep 13, 2005, 05:21 PM // 17:21

I think people should read the Ether Renewal discussions before spewing the 'it has a counter' argument.'

Not to mention, most of the 'defenders' admit it is no fun, they would quit if it was done to them, etc, etc. - just makes the case that this should be fixed.

Hell I can bring poison arrows and Drok armor in Ascalon Arena - all within ANet rules mind you - does not make it right nor fun.

Face it - it is stupid, childish, lacks creativity, unsportsman and any other adjectives you can think to describe this idiocy,

Draygo Korvan · Sep 13, 2005, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Lets see there are a total of...

Crippling Skills (skills that cause cripple OR slow an enemy down through other means)
Warrior:
1) Hamstring
2) Axe Rake
3) Desperation Blow
Ranger:
1) Crippling Shot
2) Pin Down
3) Barbed Trap
4) Muddy Terrain
5) Spike Trap
6) Maiming Strike (Pet)
Monk:
Elementalist:
1) Deep Freeze
2) Ice Prison
3) Frozen Burst
4) Ice Spikes
5) Shard Storm
6) Ward against foes
7) Iron Mist
8) Grasping Earth
9) Mind Freeze
Necromancer:
Mesmer:
1) Crippling Anguish
2) Ethereal Burden
3) Imagined Burden

Knockdowns:
Warrior:
1) Griffon's Sweep (If Evaded)
2) Bull's Strike (If Running away)
3) Bull's Charge (if running away)
4) Hammer Bash
5) Earth Shaker
6) Devastating Hammer
7) Backbreaker
Ranger:
1) Spike Trap
2) Bestial Pounce (if casting) (pet)
Monk:
1) Signet of Judgement
2) Shield of Judgment (if attacked)
Elementalist:
1) EarthQuake
2) Stoneing (if suffering from weakness)
3) Water Trident
4) Whirlwind
5) Thunderclap
6) Shock
7) Mind Shock
8) Lightning Surge
9) Gale
10) Meteor Shower
11) Meteor
Necromancer:
Mesmer:

Speed Buffs:
Warrior:
1) Sprint
2) Rush
3) Battle Rage
4) Bull's Charge
Ranger:
1) Dodge
2) Escape
3) Storm Chaser
Monk:
Elementalist:
1) Windborne Speed
2) Armor of Mist
Necromancer:
Mesmer:
1) Illusion of Haste

In addtion to all those skills you can just bring 1 or 2 degen spells. Its very hard to get out of range of casters and the hexes will prevent his health regeneration from reaching full. Necros have some really good health degens that last a very long time. THis will force him to stop and heal at some point.